The cables could add up to another $800 in unplanned expenses. Dale. Appreciate your meaning. The maximium DC input to the inverter is 68 volts and the inverter’s continuous output is 4400 VA. Not quite sure how to do that or whether I should do a single bank of 48 volts/370 amps? You are correct that the voltage drop (due to high amperage) is a major problem in 12 volt systems. It makes no sense to retrofit systems that are already working fine. In this example you would need at least two 4/0 cables in parallel for the positive and two 4/0 cables in parallel for the negative. 48 volt battery bank is the answer unless you can only afford a bank of 8 batteries. Cost, about $20 to $50 each. Automotive batteries are usually 12-volt. No other controller is made to go between a turbine and battery bank unless it is built for the specific turbine like a Bergey or Jacobs. Lithium batteries are a whole new category compared to Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) or Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM). Flex-Force 24 in. Add a set of 4/0 cables and you have a setup that will run a microwave, television, radios, toaster, hot plate or even a small air conditioner. So it would seem that 12 volts is the magic voltage! and a 24 volt charger inverter. but if you do not mind (as I am new to alternative engery) if you could give me a wiring diagram and also how many batteries do you think I would need? Hi Jody, I NEVER recommend my customers build a system with one string of batteries. On all the other info your have, especially batteries I love it. Your battery and solar module configuration will work great. We now have 3 strings of 8 x Trojan L16s. If it is a decent quality inverter, it will likely be able to surge (for 5 to 30 minutes) at about 6000 watts. If you run the charge from the controller through one end of each bank, doesn’t that give you uneven charging of the batteries further away (even assuming you charge the two banks separately)? I have tried. I don’t feel like you are being mean at all. I used 30 year metal studs to build my array base. 4000 watts/12volts=333 amps. Battery state of charge is determined by reading either terminal voltage or the specific gravity of the electrolyte. I need to power normal appliances, a regular size refrigerator, a large 110 volt air conditioner, of which I have two, one uses a little over 500 watts the other one 2500 watts. And is that even a good idea? All charge controllers are the same, the amperage rating is based on the battery voltage; the higher the voltage the more power the controller can handle. Try to bend a 4/0 solid or even large stranded wire. C5, C20 and C100. 1. DC LOOP is a Marine Design of running a pair of large diameter ( 2 awg in our case) wires in a continuous loop from and back to battery bank in our attic and dropping UL approved DC lighting wiring into the walls to switches and lighting with numerous 12 volt 30 amp outlets. I live in a 105 year old house, I resided it and in the process I ripped off all the outside lap siding, pulled out 18 huge bags of crumpled news paper, insulated with R19, added 2×3″ galvanized foundation ledge, 2×2’s and 2″ closed cell foam to the already R19 2×6 construction then had it sheather with 1/2″ plywood. Maybe you can rewire and increase the cable sizes first and see how that works and then find an MPPT controller on sale and see how that improves things. Cheers…Jody. 9 out of 10 people I see on blogs are beating their head over how to run a 300 amp AC load on a solar panel. Thank you for the information on your site. One type of battery will always be under charged and the other will be overcharged when mixing batteries. Thanks for the Reply, Lots of homework in there. My controller worked for a while, charging two batteries with a load of two 50 watt/ 12 volt light bulbs. Ours are Soviet made, also are made in Finland and can handle from 50 to 500 amps depending on the snap wire gauge. A better scenario would be to wire your 8 batteries into two groups of 4 and parallel the strings to make a 24 volt system. Like I said previously fine stranded wire is used mainly for its flexibility and a little because their is more copper in fine stranded wire than large stranded wire. That is part of the charge controller’s job. The MPPT Charge Controller | How it has Changed Everything! The only thing I would change is the battery bank size. Where are you located? They are getting older so I’m thinking of setting up another bank and dedicating one charge controller to the new batteries. Eventually I will ad links to videos if you can offer that option on your blogs. This is a weekend warrior man cave and is not going to be a heavily used or a critical use system. 0 Ah lithium-ion cells that deliver no-fade power for maximum job performance. Let’s use 4 X 100 watt solar panels and assume they produce 400 watts. My main problem is even a mini refrigerator trips my inverter every time and it will even start to beat if I turn on a squirrel cage fan in my home while running the small television. The MS2012 has a peak output of 2800 watts for 5 minutes. The only advice I have is to make sure you have a secondary dump system in case one fails. The only option if you use the 48V turbine is to use Midnite Solar’s Classic MPPT controller with built in diversion load. I know this is a big/long question to answer but quite frankly I’ve got to try and find someone that is willing to spell it out for me. I plan to run 110 volt hobby grade wood working tools and a 220 volt 15amp air compressor. Against the law!!! I have seen two 250 amp DC breakers paralleled together to make a 500 amp breaker. And my battery Bank is run in parallel with the inverter connected to the last battery still at 12 volts. I am planning to renew my solar system which is off grid 3 phase. If we divide your battery capacity 33,600 watt hours (600 amp hour battery bank X 56 Volts) into your solar output of 6840 watts we get 20% which is a little too high and could be damaging to your batteries. Or increase your battery bank to 6 more batteries for a total of 3000 AH or 72,000 watt hours. Dear sir , They can surge up to two or three times their rated wattage. I am looking into a RV Camper which has everything set up at 12 volts. 3. I want to buy 3 12 volt 12 amp batteries for a total of 6 in all, hook them up parallel to keep my 36 volt current. I am from South Africa and want to start my own of the grid system. I can send you some nice drafts of designs If you had a pic upload option. If we compare your solar array of 11,400 watts and your battery storage of 57,600 watt hours, the battery bank is too small. You may have to buy multiple charge controllers at 12 volts or even 24 depending on the size of your solar array. That way if there was ever a major system failure while we are away on vacation, the separate system will keep the heat operational. If money is tighter go with 24 volt models (8 batteries in two strings) preferably using two strings so if a battery goes bad you will still be able to limp on half your battery bank until you get a replacement battery. 48 volt battery systems are commonly found in golf carts, off-the-grid battery systems, and forklifts. While 12 volt appliances are readily available, the usual way of doing things now in all but the smallest of systems is using 24 or even 48 volt battery based systems and then using an inverter to provide 120/240VAC (North America) or 230VAC (the rest of the world) for your loads. Thank you for reading…………….Dan. I agree with you about the US as well as the rest of the world seeing as all the world’s currencies are fiat and backed by the US dollar which is backed by nothing. The never ending mis information about “wire size savings” and you must use fine stranded welding cable has permeated the solar world like a poison. At 24 volts (really about 28.8) that is 13.9 amps (28.8 volts X 13.9 amps = 400 watts). I’m building my first Solar power system for my garage which is to remote to practically run power to. Sometimes it takes me a month to reply to questions and comments. No electric dryer, we use propane. The other option is a 12V turbine connected directly to the battery bank with breaker. When we divide 6000 watts by 12 volts we get a maximum surge current of 500 amps. �lʝ4-�\p�2���J�� r?��#�%�xZWf�0m9c���Ć�l��UQqBi��~�Q��iE�����X}~d�.w��-���7��@�T¢�UsN�f��-�lc`�/�)g��DZn���a;�L�܇GF���٧mڱŚITi�з���'-2u�\�S���2��4�m�$*iL��*i�� �d����-~t���%U��赫,�����_,C�h�Ғ+a�t���_;l9�*�C��(��_��y7�Ъ�K{���c��I��*���|��{��6��:�8S3m8��(-E���������N[f�L�ϸV���ů̳�ч���_���VW�aHP�W4�CXW�)]UB�%���)]�͂)� U�aƂ���L�/�4�����A7%+. You will be in a world of hurt trying to mix the two. You will know if it is low frequency if it is heavy and not super light. We had successful sea trials on the craft that utilized two 48 volt DC, 10,500 kw, diesel marine generators, three battery banks of 8 Enersys 12 volt batteries, the Magnum MS448 Inverter/Charger I’m using now, four 48 volt electric pod motors mounted under the hull provide the propulsion. To charge a 48 volt battery bank you will need at least 60-65 volts mpv (mppv) solar modules usually done by wiring solar modules in series. I’ll see what I can do for a wind turbine/dump load drawing. In each group of two panels connect the (-) negative of one panel to the (+) positive of the other. Email photos to jody@solarhomestead.com if you get a chance. Where are you located? After our dog n’ pony show with investors (who were mostly not boaters) , our security and exchange lawyer, our Raytheon guy and Composite Yacht Corp, we failed to get the funding to build the marketable craft……SO, Third I am assuming your battery/inverter cables are too small not allowing the current/voltage to get to your appliances. One small LED television, ceiling fan, and lights of which are almost all LED. You have a good point about being able to find a 12 volt inverter in an emergency at Walmart but I doubt it would be anything but modified sine wave. What are the best choices for your first battery bank, How to charge your batteries with a generator, How to find the defective battery in your bank, Learn how to make your batteries last as long as possible. You may NOT connect the lithium batteries to your FLA batteries as they have different Bulk, Absorb and Float voltages. Some 50 amp. I had a close friend take his life after a long struggle with opiate addiction around the same time time you wrote this comment. The 48v inverters are fairly expensive, but at least 120v is 120v (AC) no matter how you create it. Anyway, would using DC converters make 48 volt batteries practical? : ). I know you passed through this stage years ago yourself and appreciate your thoughts. You will find it won’t be much less efficient than your 48-12 converter depending on the model you have. The actual resting voltage, or the voltage a battery will settle at 12-24 hours after being removed from the charger, is closer to 2.1 volts per cell, or about 6.4 volts for a 6v battery, and 12.7 volts for a 12v battery. That size of cable (350kcmil) would be prohibitively expensive. I have three such banks. Our batteries are 12V and we have the MS2812 inverter you mention from Magnum (an excellent piece of equipment in spite of what follows). You will definitely need a low frequency inverter with a high surge capacity like a Magnum Energy or an Outback Power inverter. They are also high frequency to be cheap making them unreliable. 2100 watts of solar array, two systems (1400 and 700). Also, if you’ve got all four solar modules in series, you get all the voltage mentioned but only produce about 4.5-5 amps/hour, correct? You can even buy batteries that are 12 volt. A 100 watt module will produce 100 watts (really 75 or so in reality) regardless of the voltage, whether they are in parallel or series. (Not the maximum power one) with three deep cycle marine batteries 12 volt. The peak charging voltage for Gel batteries is 2.3 to 2.36 volts per cell, and for a 24 volt charger this works out to 27.6 to 28.3 volts, which is lower than a wet or AGM type battery needs for a full charge. If they have a shingled roof, skip ALL the solar panel mounting hardware and use 26 gauge Delta style commercial grade metal roofing panels laterally on the rood then with simple clips you can screw to the raised ribs of the roof panel. I’m also going to have a diesel generator for back up. You are doing fine. Please help me get this configuration better and stronger because the summer heat is about to hit and I want a refrigerator and an air conditioner at the same time which at the current moment seems almost impossible! No electric hot water heater either. LIE, Welding cable is ONLY Fine stranded for flexibility, not superior ampacity. Thank you for the response. If I have a battery failure I have to remove the remove the bad battery and cut my storage to 2/3rds until I can get another battery but I am still operational. monitor still saying I’m getting current. If you can answer these questions I will do what I can to help you when I get back. If we connected one positive and one negative from a 12 volt battery bank to our DC breaker panel large enough to handle both inverters (12,000 watts) we would need cable large enough to handle 1000 amps (with a 1000 amp Class T fuse at the battery bank) and then split 500 amps (with two 500 amp breakers) to each inverter. Hello,i didn’t install my windpower system yet,my setup will be all homemade using three model 60 stators 36 poles from LG washers and i wasn’t sure at what voltage i should rewire the stators so after reading some of your information i decided to go 24 volts with one three phase rectifier for each stator and a charge controller that can handle all three stators and for a dump load i may use one or two elements from a hot water tank. A 12 volt 4000 watt inverter is not feasible anyway as the amperage would be far too high. It seems to work well enough. Second, 12 volt is less dependable – LIE, the 12volt industry has over 78% of the market and innovations. But still there are the weekend warriors that only want to operate a small fridge and a few lights or they have a propane fridge and propane lighting. When making connections to the battery bank you NEED to connect the positive to one corner of the bank and the negative to the other corner. Third, voltage reduction to use 12 volt lighting is not expensive. When you go shopping for those products you will soon realize they don’t exist or are very rare. I will be using a compost toilet (no power needed), a Polaris Water Heater and a wood stove as back up. My roof got the same treatment, they indexed my home in total as average of +R29 radiant loss ratio when they did the siding install. At a company such as http://www.lugsdirect.com I think you can purchase approved terminals for about $1.50-$2.00 each for 2/0-4/0 cable ends but I would have to check on that. I am designing my solar system for the first time. Thank you for commenting. Or you could source 2 24VDC nominal voltage modules instead of using 4 12VDC nominal voltage modules. What items will you be operating on the battery bank? 12, 24, or 48. They look like old mouse traps. I would like to configure two 48 volt battery banks to alternately feed the inverter. 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